bdsm and squick

[kaizoku]

I posted this as a comment and then realized it sums up very well how I feel about bdsm in fanfiction.

Personally, I am not so much squicked out by what instruments are used as by the emotional tone of the story and the beliefs that the writer and/or the characters espouse. A lot of the time I will skip stories where there is "harder" BDSM (whipping, caning, etc.) because more often those kinds of stories tend to have relationship dynamics that squick me. (And b/c of it, I'm sure I've missed things I would have enjoyed.)

It also depends on how the dynamic is treated - e.g. if the story is non-con, is that seen as perfectly fine (because it's John and Rodney and they love each other, awww) or as something fucked-up (Kolya/Rodney for example)? If it's seen as something fucked-up, I probably will like the story. If not, well, there's the back button. If it's somewhere on the edge, I may or may not like it (Stockholm syndrome, yes; abusive relationship fic, no; "Oh, he was really jealous so it's okay", no.)

On the other hand, I have a secret love for (involuntary) sex slavery fic where the "master" ends up falling in love with the slave who hates him/her and they eventually establish a consentual relationship. A good example is Beauty and the Kitsune by Eternal Treasure (which Gundam Wing, Heero/Duo - I haven't read many of this type lately.)

Of course, as always, Your Kink Is OK, It's Just Not My Kink.

Comments

[velocitygrass.livejournal.com]

Hey, when I browsed your past entries the other day you mentioned SGA BDSM recs. Have you ever done them somewhere?

I have to admit to me it's not so much practices that I enjoy when reading kink, but the emotion behind it, giving oneself away/taking care of someone, that sort of thing. Which can happen in, say, a spanking fic, but can also not.

I don't think I've ever read non-con that was seen as perfectly fine. That turned out fine after getting over it (however quickly that might be), but never "You raped me!" "But I love you." "Well, then that's okay." (although I guess even that has the initial accusation, so maybe not a good example).

I have to admit I also have a thing for... well, "dubious consent", the sort of thing where A is drugged/possessed and B lets it happen, because he knows A isn't under control (and because he wanted A anyway). Makes for good guilty angst before the happy end.

[kaizoku.livejournal.com]

SGA BDSM recs? You know, I think I meant to and never did. I should definitely change that. The task is somewhat daunting though! :-)

I don't think I've ever read non-con that was seen as perfectly fine.

I guess I was thinking mainly of "lifestyle" BDSM fics that have a non-consentual dynamic, for example where the sub doesn't give full consent. When the top assumes consent or thinks he knows what the sub needs better than the sub does. Sometimes to a limited extent that is okay for me, especially if it's "in scene" - it actually squicks me more when it's control exerted over the rest of the sub's life. For example, I tried to read Xanthe's General and Doctor story, gave up on it, then read Coming Home. Then I ended up going back and reading the parts of General and Doctor that were alt!universe John and Rodney (especially the sex, hehe.) I just couldn't stomach the relationship of SGA John and Rodney in it though, even - maybe especially - before they start having sex. (By the way, Xanthe is a great writer imho - her kinks are my squick is all.)

The other one I've seen sometimes is where C rapes A, and then A and B get together and B's only response to the rape is possessive rage/jealousy. I'm always like, "Wow, you totally missed the point." Unless, you know, that is the writer's point. But then we're dealing with evil!John - or at least fucked-in-the-head!John (or Rodney, or whoever.)

I have to admit to me it's not so much practices that I enjoy when reading kink, but the emotion behind it, giving oneself away/taking care of someone, that sort of thing. Which can happen in, say, a spanking fic, but can also not.

Agreed. I think (generally speaking) stories that focus more on the external struggle than the internal struggle are less interesting. I've been noticing that lately in stories that aren't really BDSM-oriented, which is exciting. That's something I think you get a lot more of in fanfiction than m/m erotica, too.

I have to admit I also have a thing for... well, "dubious consent", the sort of thing where A is drugged/possessed and B lets it happen, because he knows A isn't under control (and because he wanted A anyway). Makes for good guilty angst before the happy end.

Yes, indeed! I have a bit of a kink for sleepy-sex. And I should have said, I can tolerate being squicked to a point, especially if it's really good. ;-)

[velocitygrass.livejournal.com]

I really like Xanthe's stories, but for me, too, the dynamic, in particular between "our" John and Rodney didn't quite work. I simply don't see John as wanting that much control. I did like certain parts of the "controlling the rest of the sub's life" thing, again, going towards the theme of taking care of someone.

Xanthe's stories (and also Mithreon's to a degree) have been quite inspiring for me and I've been toying with an idea for a John/Rodney lifestyle BDSM fic that works for me personally (which is really full of compromises, because I tend to see John more as a sub, but Rodney as Dom is an absolute no-go for me, at least in a full on lifestyle BDSM fic, where he's not just faking his way through a scene for John's sake).

I'm always like, "Wow, you totally missed the point."
Oh, I see. I have to say, I haven't read all that many rape fics. They were either serious or had that typical cock-heals-all element, which... well, if there's at least some semblance of dealing with it before he says he's ready to be fucked by the one he loves... okay. Because if I want to read about how to cope with rape, I'll not look for it in fanfic. Of course I still very much appreciate if it's handled well in a fic, but it's not necessarily a requirement.

I have a bit of a kink for sleepy-sex.
Oooh, I've actually written that. Here (http://velocitygrass.livejournal.com/14013.html).

SGA BDSM recs? You know, I think I meant to and never did. I should definitely change that.
That would be great. Especially if it discusses the content a bit and goes beyond the Spanking, D/s categories that e.g. Crossroads offers.

[kaizoku.livejournal.com]

Xanthe's stories (and also Mithreon's to a degree) have been quite inspiring for me and I've been toying with an idea for a John/Rodney lifestyle BDSM fic that works for me personally (which is really full of compromises, because I tend to see John more as a sub, but Rodney as Dom is an absolute no-go for me, at least in a full on lifestyle BDSM fic, where he's not just faking his way through a scene for John's sake).

That would be really interesting. What kind of compromises do you see happening? If you don't mind talking about it, that is.

I can see Rodney as a Dom in some ways, in his having some desire to be in charge. He's usually so vulnerable that I can see someone else's vulnerability (especially John's) being a revelation to him. And also, I admit, competent!Rodney get me hot.

I see John as more of a sub too. I think he consciously lowers his status a lot. He "plays low" whenever he has power. (It would be interesting to see him playing low as Rodney's top actually - I'm not even sure that would work. Like making Rodney do all the work. *g*) On the other hand, I think if someone tries to get John to submit, he's going to resist, which could be very neat. Though I'm not sure how that would work outside of bed, when they're working, and with the other power diferentials of the military and the team.

One of my favorite stories, both for the treatment of Xanthe's BDSM universe and the inability of either Rodney or John to really get what they want is Take Clothes Off As Directed by Helenish. (Also one of the first stories that comes to mind when I think about writing in-depth BDSM recs.)

I have a bit of a kink for sleepy-sex.
Oooh, I've actually written that. Here.

You have made my day! Will read later (must go write now.)

[nimnod.livejournal.com]

So - example of SGAs stories in this category that did and did not squick you, just out of interest?

[kaizoku.livejournal.com]

So, the squicks aren't to be taken as anti-recs in any way, they're just not my taste.

Squicked me:
- Xanthe's General and Doctor series (more for the canon!John and Rodney relationship than the alt!universe John and Rodney)
- Ladycat and Wolfshark's Up Against the Ropes Again (I loved this but was still a bit squicked)
- Mithreon's When Push Comes to Shove (has OMC/McKay non-con, later Sheppard/McKay)

On the edge:
- CJ Andre's Something to Remind You
- Lavvyan's Shudder
- Rebecca's Now and Later

Didn't squick though it could have:
- Magus_minor's Shark trilogy: I, II, III and Ellex's sequel "Predator" (because they were so explicitly dark, I think)
- Davechicken's Kolya/McKay stories
- Mirabile's Fortuitous Night, Fated, Free (OMC/John non-con)

Can't think of much more at the moment, since I tend to avoid things that look like they'll seriously squick me and my bookmarks are woefully incomplete. At one point, everything posted to atlantiskink was squicking me, but there seems to be more diversity now.

[ladycat777.livejournal.com]

I... want to have thinky thoughts about this post. In fact, I do. I'm just not sure how to put them in words, mostly because I think your squick and my squick are not all that dissimilar, only mine receeds when it comes to out-and-out fiction. But, hm. I am not sure of that, either.

I'm not surprised UATRA squicked you. I fully admit that my fictional kinks are strange :)

[kaizoku.livejournal.com]

I do read stories that squick me, especially if the story is intriguing or the writing is good. But if I know ahead of time that something is likely to squick me, I'll avoid it, sometimes to my detriment. The more I think about the word "squick" the more it seems like a big tangled-up knot of different reactions, not all of them unpleasant. Or maybe that's just me.

With UATRA, I think I got a little squicked out after the fact. Maybe because it hit close to home. Somewhat similar to reading Take Clothes Off As Directed - I went into kind of a mental tailspin for about a week after reading that.

[ladycat777.livejournal.com]

*nod* yeah, mental tail spins are bad and not to be encouraged, although knowing them in advance...

And I get what you mean by squick. It isn't always something bad, or gross, but it can be good but just uncomfortable, or too good -- too real -- for you to stay in the fictional frame of mind. I'm that way non-con. I do enjoy non-con (although in my head it's more 'forcing someone to enjoy it') in certain (fictional!) situations, and a good writer can make me squirm like crazy.

But I've read a lot of 'non-con' that were just out and out rape (in my head, there's a difference; I have a weird head) and sicken me, even if they still turn me on. I mean, okay, some of it's just bad. But some of the good stuff... I want to like it, I want to find it hot, but there are too many things that come from my head and my experiences and my own beliefs that trip me up.

Your kink is my kink too

[(Anonymous)]

Huh. Beauty and the Kitsune. You don't say.

Ah...Memories. That was years ago. I'd like to hope I've matured a bit since then. In the way I express myself and the I tell a story. I never DID finish Beauty and the Kitsune, though I have changed the whole thing quite a lot over the years and the raw edges have been smoothed quite a bit.

I do believe that I will finish it now and continue on writing in GW and other fandoms.

EternalTreasure (sorry to leap into your thread, I'll duck out now)

P.S. On the very off chance that someone was looking to get in touch with me, only the Eternaltreasure e-mail is working.

Re: Your kink is my kink too

[kaizoku.livejournal.com]

Hi!
Wow, yeah, Beauty and the Kitsune was one of my favorite Gundam Wing stories! (I had it saved on my computer for years... I was a complete lurker in those days so I probably never sent feedback.) I tried a few times to find more chapters - I did find the artificial reality game off-shoot, which I thought was really neat.

I can understand that it might seem immature to you now, but I think it still stands up quite well as a story and there's precious few other fantasy AUs that I have enjoyed as much. I'll be thrilled if you finish it!

kaizoku